Stealthing the Whites: List?

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#41

I had something positive to contribute when I started reading this thread but then I forgot. Probably something to the point that the Whites see more visitors each year than Yellowstone and GLacier NP’s, combined. Thus the fees and regulations. While not convienient to everyone all the time, that is what the AMC has decided is the best way to allow peeps to still enjoy the 2nd most beautiful part of America east of the Mississippi. If you don’t like the way AMC runs things. Join, attend meetings and talk to the peeps that make those decisions. Do something. Bitching on TF’s only makes you sound like a whinner. (sp?)

Those against the huts and that advise against keeping them, remember, if you want less people to go to the mountains, you will have less people who want to protect the mountains. People won’t protect what they can’t enjoy. Its like tennis, hockey, and soccer. I don’t play them so why would i care if they were ever played again? Sort of a streth but I think the point is clear.

Stay the course A-train and those like you…

Officer Taco

#42

Before my thru-hike this year, I worked for 6 months for the AMC at Pinkham Notch Visitor Center, so I’d just like to say a few things about this topic.
First, AMC Headquarters are located at 3, 4, and 5 Joy Street. However, the AMC OWNS all these buildings, so no rent payments there.
The White Mountains are like no other section of trail. They recieve the highest backcountry use of any part of the trail, and they are also the most fragile. Remember the other high use points of the trail - the smokies and shennandoah? Remember all the trash everywhere? Yes, these places recieve tremendous impact, but these places are also composed of fairly mature, deciduous forests which only have to endure mild winters, and can sustain significant human disturbances.
The Whites, on the other hand, are composed of many high elevation stretches subjected to harsh colds and winds similar to the arctic regions. Plant growth is very slow in these fragile alpine areas, and even slight human disturbances can leave very lasting impacts.
Thus, the purpose of the AMC huts and shelters is to concentrate all impact in a specific location. By limiting human disturbance to specific locations, the rest of the forest can be adequately protected. And the quarter mile protection area around backcountry facilities is to ensure that impact is concentrated within the site itself, and to prevent people from wreaking havoc upon the area surrounding the site. That is why camping is limited only to the site, by restricted to the areas around the site. The hut and shelter system is a management strategy designed to protect the forest without limiting access to the forest. Remember, rangers could just as easily switch to a permit system which limits many people’s access, or switch to an uncompromising system like Baxter State Park, and strictly enforce visitor numbers.
The AT isn’t the only trail in the whites; in fact, it makes up only a very small portion. Maintaining all these trails in good condition, to sustain such high amounts of human traffic, costs a lot of money - as does maintaining all of these huts and shelters.
And the huts and shelters actually lose money. Costs include paying the crews, buying the food, and flying in supplies to the huts by helicopter. Just an hour of helicopter time costs $800, and they make several flights a year to each of their backcountry facilities. Further costs include dealing with backcountry waste in a sustainable manner and providing safe drinking water for all backcountry guests.
And with the weather as harsh as it is in the Whites, even in the summer, having the huts available as a place for hikers to get out of the weather has undoubtedly saved many a life. In fact, Lakes of the Clouds Hut was originally built in the early 1900’s as a place of refuge near a spot where a hiker had died while climbing Mt. Washington. And each year, hut crews participate in rescues of stranded and hurt hikers.
I found hut crews to be extremely friendly and accommodating during my own thru-hike, and I was quite appreciative for a warm bunk and a huge supplement to my normally meager food rations. In in exchange for all this bounty - I had to do something that amounted to 10 minutes of chores. A hut stay costs $70 dollars; essentially, thus, my work for stay was valued at over $400 an hour! I was working for the same rate as CEO, except I was only sweeping the floors!
Lastly, last year when I was thru-hiking the Long Trail, I stayed at the Long Trail Inn some with some AT thru-hikers. Some of them ran up bar tabs of $30 or $40; one of them drank $80 worth of Guiness. And then we go complain about work for stay or having to pay $8 for a shelter? Hiking the trail is a privilege - think how many people dream of hiking the trail, and how few actually get the chance to realize the adventure? Now, I’m not saying the AMC is perfect - I do think charging $70 for a hut stay is a bit much. But for the high amount of human traffic that the Whites experience, the AMC is doing a pretty good job protecting the forest for all to enjoy.

First Light

#43

I am singing the Messiah First Light. You are a man/woman of much patience to so clearly articulate the benefits and necessity of the AMC hut system.

And as OT said, if you don’t like the system, do something about. Don’t just keep whining like a 3rd grade school girl.

Rowboat

#44

Oh, the pity the poor bourgoise.
So many challenges and heartaches involved with maintaining HOTELS on top of fragile alpine terrains. And all so people can HAVE AN OUTDOOR EXPERIENCE. I sense a bit of a martyr mentality surrounding these huts and this stretch of trail.
Nothing personal FL, but you are missing the point.

It’s a pretty vague operation for having $49 million in assets–it can’t even keep its web site up and running. WHERE does the money go?

Just so many troublesome troubles trying to keep the huts going just so all those people can pay all that money.
Helicopter resupply?
Give me a break!!
Carry a can of beans with you.
I hear the sad music in the background…:bawling
I see a genteel and callow young man turning his ankle while hiking with his Muffy and them both being saved in the nick of time, just as dusk is falling, by a wine-and-cheese-bearing springer spaniel. They return in time to participate in a smashing round of charades and a nightcap in hut.

And I hear the credit card approvals beeping and the paid staffs grinning, convinced that their role is coveted and hard to obtain and that they should be thankful to participate in such an opportunity. “Your position is valued at over a million dollars a minute: priceless!” Wow. And the naieve kids lap it up and become adults who lap it up…and dutifully mail checks. (It’s a standard corporate tactic, by the way.) All this since 1876. What a scam.
No huts means fewer people.
Once again, the emperor has no clothes.

Skool

#45

Friends, I invite you West to hike the PCT, where none of this EVER takes place. There are simply no huts, no shelters, and certainly no AMC.

Little John

#46

AMC huts
I’m a Natural Resources major at Cornell University, and one of the things emphasized in my coursework is that conservation is impossible unless you have the public on your side. And to emphasize OT’s point, the AMC brings people from the city - families, inner city youths, etc, and shows them the natural wonders that can be found in places like the White Mountains. People will never care about preserving something unless it means something to them. And the hut system is one of the ways the AMC uses to get people outdoors and to realize how special areas such as the Whites really are. The AMC is not in the mountains to make a profit. Research, education, and conservation efforts take place at the huts, and there is some cost incurred for these activities. And as for assets - any healthy, functioning non-profit organization will have assets. And it is with these 49 million dollars of assets that the AMC furthers its mission of protecting the outdoors and promoting scientific research. And lest we forget that the AMC publishes and frequently updates numerous trail and paddling guides? You might find the 49 million dollar figure appalling, but consider that Big Timber, Big Mining, ATV, and other industries threatening to denude our wilderness, spend tens of millions of dollars on lobbying; with such incredible power, it takes well organized conservation organizations such as the AMC to protect our wild areas from exploitation. The huts and the AMC were in existence long before the AT was even conceived of; this system of refuges has become a part of the White Mountain Lore. The Whites are a unique place with a unique system of lodging, and I don’t forsee a change in either of these tenents. The huts are here to stay (The AMC outright owns the land where Madison Hut is located). If you don’t like the hut system - don’t stay there, or act to reform them. If you want to see something changed about the hut system, write to the AMC - make a positive contribution to the process. The AMC has been more than accommodating to thru-hikers, and they frequently bend the rules for hikers. The situation that is developping here, however, is a perfect example right out of the endangered services campaign sponsored by ALDHA. Hikers that are rude, demanding, or direspectful to hut crews create a negative image of thru-hikers, and this hurts all parties. And, hut crews may not be able to be as accommodating to hikers in the future. Lastly, the important thing about the hut system is that it is bringing people outdoors, even if only for a night. Some people don’t have the desire, much less the ability, to take 4 or 5 months off from work. But the important thing is that the AMC getting these people to experience the wilds. I myself always had a good time talking with hut guests, and their presence no less diminishes the fact that we walked from GA to ME. Again, I’m not saying the AMC is perfect, but then again, neither are thru-hikers…

First Light

#47

Thank you First Light-glad to see the perspective of someone who has both worked for AMC and hiked the AT. I don’t get it from those of you who say we should banish the whole system, yet gladly accepted food and lodging when you hiked thru-seemed a little hypoctrical to me.

A-Train

#48

About trail maintenance and local chapters (if you’re discussing the AMC, you have to know about the chapters):
• AMC has 90,000 members and local chapters all the way down to DC.
• Members are not limited to hiking but have a full slate of other outdoor activities, among them paddling, climbing, and cycling. The chapters also offer outdoor skills classes including wilderness first aid training and trail maintenance. Not all of them are free, but the extra fees are pretty minimal. In fact, if you don’t have much money or your own wheels, it’s a great cheap way to visit the outdoors (as I found out when I lived in NYC). I haven’t heard of any members complaining about paying dues.
• AMC chapters do substantial AT trail maintenance (by themselves and cooperatively) all the way down from New England through New Jersey. The large trail maps I’ve seen some places online have the name of the club responsible for maintenance listed alongside their section of trail. Chapters also do trail maintenance on many of their area’s other trails.
• The Mohican Center is run by an AMC chapter. Many thru’s seem to have stayed there without complaint.
• Volunteers do trail maintenance. Some of them may be high school students. What’s wrong with that? Volunteers have to come from somewhere. Unless they were chained together and whipped to work, I gotta believe they were there because they wanted to be.

• As far as the umbrella organization goes:
• AMC predates the AT by 40 or 50 years and I seem to recall reading somewhere that they were dragged kicking and screaming onto the AT.
• I suspect, given the club’s longevity and who their founders were (granted, some of them did have money, but so did Andrew Carnegie, who contributed money to start public libraries all across the US) that the Joy St headquarters were bequeathed to them. I have no way of knowing this for sure without further research, but given knowledge of how they came into some other property, I’d say there’s a pretty good chance. People leave things to causes and organizations they believe in. (FYI, other organizations have access to their facilities for meetings and educational activities.)
• The last time I looked their director made a little over $100,000/year. That seems to me to be a reasonable salary for the director of a 90,000 member organization.
• Other than the director there is a small paid staff.
• They have a volunteer board of directors.
• Their annual report can be downloaded from their website (when it’s back up. Not sure what’s going on there. Maybe they did it on a shoestring. All the chapter websites seem to be up).
• They’re not a charity. They’re a nonprofit. Charities give away money. Nonprofits put the money back into their organization’s programs. And, by the way, nonprofits are allowed to have endowments, which may include real estate (as in 5 Joy St).

Concerning the hut system:
• AMC huts may draw some hikers to the Whites but the most densely populated area of the US (the Boston-Philadelphia corridor) is within a 6 or 7 hour drive. I’d say the Whites draw people to the Whites. Should we just take down all the facilities in the Whites and leave them open to any kind of use, without any kind of controls at all. That seems to me to be the height of folly. Maybe a better alternative would be to fence it all in and only allow people in who promise to be good (which probably wouldn’t include all thru’s).
• If you do your research before you thru hike, you know what to expect when you get to the Whites and you plan accordingly.
• I doubt if even the above stated figure of thru’s as 3% of users is correct. It sounds overstated to me. A more reasonable figure might be .3%. That’s an awfully small number of people to offer special treatment to.
• It seems to me that there is a kind of reverse elitism going on when people complain about $70 nights in a hut. Who do you think all those thru and day and vacation and section hikers who share the whole trail with you during your thru hike are? I think that some of them probably make a pretty good buck. Some of them don’t. Most of us are in between. Should peoples’ outdoor experience be limited because they can afford things that not all of us can? Or because they don’t mind paying a higher price for lodging. Take that to its logical conclusion and maybe there should be an income test for shelter nights.

Lots of snide, condescending and patronizing replies to thoughtful posts. Cynical, too. Too bad.

disco

#49

I will have to say,when I got word of being forced to stay at huts and then being charged for that service ,the idea of it made me a little angry. But when I got there ,I found that the “croos” were very good about helping the thru hikers. If there wasnt room, I would move on and steath somewhere. It wasnt that hard to do and if you respect the surrounding you dont leave much of an impact. Also normally you could get food for hardly no work at all because they usually cooked too much. I felt more sorry for the people that paid the big bucks and then watched us skate through for free. But if thru hikers start this idea that people owe them something, then we are hurting ourselve as a collective group. We will see the help stop as we become resented. Were kinda like a bunch of seagulls.

Virginian

#50

inner city kid can sleep in the woods… lovely… destroy the roads leading to and around the whites… burn/dynamite the huts and visitor center… level that cog railraod and the road to the top of Mount Washington and then let’s see who go backcountry. The mountains should be for those who want to go to the mountains. The Baxter formula would be FANTASTIC here… That is the one park that makes sense! NO DEVELOPMENT! Percieval was a genius unlike the AMC morons. He didn’t want Katahdin to turn into a Washington. THANK GOD!

Whomever said there was more trash in the Smokies than the Whites obviously hasn’t hiked much. Two times thru the whites and every time I am disgusted by toilet paper all over the places… The educators maybe haven’t drawn a good picture of what six inches deep looks like.

To me this is not about thru hikers versus the AMC… but about a mountain range and people that want to enjoy it unspoiled. Hiking this year also showed me what is coming with AMC in other states. The “rules” along the AT in Conneticut have been morphing into a Whites style slowly. And why hasn’t anyone brought up the AMC’s invasion of the wilderness? $250 a night for poor urban kids to get a taste of the Maine woods. How about the 15 million the good natured AMC soent on the parcel up in Maine be used to simply restore and keep the wilderness a wilderness. To try to undo what the logging companies did. Instead of let’s try to make a huge buck on people who can afford that ridiculous charge. How long before they make rules for that section? Who the hell voted for giving them power of WE the people’s natural resources?

Aswah

aswah

#51

I just googled for the Nature Conservancy’s Assets: in 2003 over $3 BILLION! Oh my god! They must be 60 times as evil as the AMC with a measly $49 million in assets.

Can we at least discuss these issues with a smidgeon of thought? Please?

Radar

#52

I think the White Mtns. are racist, I mean why can’t they be called the Of European Descent Mtns?

Aha, I keed I keed…

I don’t mind the hut system of the AMC, though I do wish that they would do more to teach LNT to those who venture there, because, as I saw all along the trail, many thru-hikers need a lesson in LNT as well. Work for stay, for me anyway, was a piece of cake. Hmm, and the cake was good too.

-Snack
:cheers

Snack Attack

#53

I have a question for those of you who are seeking to learn the location of stealth camping sites in the Whites. Is there anything you plan on learning yourself out on the trail, or do you want all the answers while you sit behind your computer?

Why don’t you just download the AT completion certificate and mail it into the ATC? It’s a lot easier that way.

Little Bear
GA-ME 2000

Little Bear

#54

Skool, yes…the company I work for (ARAMARK)manages Big Meadows but we do so on contract. We do not own the facility. As such, we answer to the owner. Big Meadows exists for paying customers. If I understand correctly they offer ‘work for’ to thru-Hikers.

Aslan

#55

I just loved that drunken brawl at Big Meadows in '01. Two guys beat the crap out of each other at 1am. Funny as all. One went to the hospital, four to jail and who knows how much money spent to fix it all. I felt sorry for the French couple on their honeymoon next to them. Ah, the memories. Woohoo, lets hike.

Bushwhack

#56

More Abbey!

Tha Wookie

#57

“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.”

Edward Abbey

“My cousin Elroy spent seven years as an IBM taper staring at THINK signs on the walls before he finally got a good idea: He quit.”

Edward Abbey

“Government: If you refuse to pay unjust taxes, your property will be confiscated. If you attempt to defend your property, you will be arrested. If you resist arrest, you will be clubbed. If you defend yourself against
clubbing, you will be shot dead. These procedures are known as the Rule of Law.”

Edward Abbey

“How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your Tee Vee; kill your own beef; build your own cabin and piss off the front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.”

Edward Abbey

“If America could be, once again, a nation of self-reliant farmers, craftsmen, hunters, ranchers, and artists, then the rich would have little power to dominate others. Neither to serve nor to rule: That was the American dream.”

Edward Abbey

“What’s the difference between a whore and a congressman? A congressman makes more money.”

Edward Abbey

“Wilderness begins in the human mind.”

Edward Abbey

“If wilderness is outlawed, only outlaws can save wilderness.”

Edward Abbey

“It is not enough to understand the natural world; the point is to defend and preserve it.”

Edward Abbey

“If people persist in trespassing upon the grizzlies’ territory, we must accept the fact that the grizzlies, from time to time, will harvest a few trespassers.”

Edward Abbey

“In all of nature, there is no sound more pleasing than that of a hungry animal at its feed. Unless you are the food.”

Edward Abbey

“Man’s deliberate destruction of his own habitat–planet Earth–could serve as a mighty theme for a mighty book worthy of a modern Melville or Tolstoy. But our best fictioneers confine themselves to domestic drama–soap opera with literary trimmings.”

Edward Abbey

“The one great gift to humankind from our nuclear physicists has been the nuclear bomb. How can we ever thank them?”

Edward Abbey

“Our modern industrial economy takes a mountain covered with trees, lakes, running streams and transforms it into a mountain of junk, garbage, slime pits, and debris.”

Edward Abbey

“America My Country: last nation on earth to abolish human slavery; first of all nations to drop the nuclear bomb on our fellow human beings.”

Edward Abbey

ED from the DEAD

#58

Abbey rocks! I’ve got to dig out my books again.:cheers

Tyger

#59

“Beware traveler, you are approaching the land of the horned gods…”

-ED

Tha Wookie