This stretch is usually buried under snow when the thru-hikers cross it. Does anybody mark it with flags/tape? I’m thinking of being a Trail Angel and marking it each spring. Thoughts?
bowlegs
Fuller ridge near San Jacinto
system
#2
I’m pretty sure that this would be illegal, since it’s a wilderness area. There have been proposals to erect more signs in the recent past, and they were shot down for that reason.
Anyway, if a thru-hiker can’t find there way through there, they shouldn’t be wandering through the Sierra, which is many more miles away from possible help. Just my cruel $.02 worth…
markv
system
#3
I see your point MARKV but if you take that philosophy to an extreme, then you could say the same thing about water caches and trail angels.
Every year, I read stories of hikers getting lost in this area and there have even been a few deaths.
I’m generally against adding too much signage in wilderness areas but I think exceptions need to be made for areas that see a lot of use, and where safety is a big factor.
Besides, people wandering off trail are probably doing more damage then a few well, placed signs would.
:cheers
jalan
system
#4
Actually, Fuller Ridge is obvious when snowbound (once you find the ridge), its the area between Red Taquitz & Saddle Junction (Devil’s Slide trail) that can be a route finding challenge. This is the section where John got into trouble in '05.
I’m @ the Coffee Shop ‘Higher Grounds’ in Idyllwild at the moment and Tom the "Trail Magician’ will be dropping me off within a couple hours @ Pines to Palms Highway.
It looks like the snow level is around 6500’ right now & I’ll post an update when I come back down to town this weekend.
I agree with Markv (once again) - if you’re not comfortable being in snowbound situations, then don’t push through them. PCT thru-hikers can always drop down to HWY #243 & road walk to Black Mountain road if they need to.
If I run into a situation which I feel is dangerous in the next couple of days, I will backtrack & drop down one of the side trails (like @ Fobes Saddle, Spitler Creek Trail, or South Ridge Trail. NOBO past Saddle Junction, i could bomb off down Deer Springs or Marion Ridge Trail.
As far as the Sierra’s are concerned, thru-hikers always have the option to wait for the (majority) of the snow to melt (or flip to Canada if its a light snow year up there) if they are lacking the snow skills.
Happy Trails
freebird
system
#5
The philosophy of putting signs all over for safety hasn’t really led to a safer world. It’s only led to a more litigous one. The more signs that are out there, the less people think for themselves, thus requiring more signs. So sometimes a sign is important, but it’s not the answer to the problem all the time.
I think the point of limited signs in a wilderness area is so that one has the feel of being in real wilderness, with minimal human encroachment. That’s all relative though, and i’m not going to care if a few more signs went up. I just think that if the Jacinto area came after the Sierra, no PCT hikers would make a big deal about it. But Jacinto is the first challenge, and so it becomes a big deal. If you take away that challenge, then the NEXT challenge would be the first challenge and would be a big deal. If you take away all the challenges, well then, i don’t know. No fun? It’s a hike, and at SOME point people have to figure out how to look at a map and either find their way through snow and mountains, or find a way around them. It seems to me Jacinto is the perfect place for this, because there are so many escape routes and nearby services.
The issue of water caches and trail angels is more of a convenience one. One can always drop down off-trail to get water and food. You would have to be incredibly out of touch with your body to die of starvation or thirst on the PCT. Caches and angels do make it easier, quicker, and sometimes happier to be out there, but it’s not like they save lives. I love trail angels and caches! I’ve even been guilty of being one.
Until someone makes an entire hike while growing all their own food, making all their own gear, drawing their own maps, etc, there’s no such thing as a truly unsupported hike anyway.
markv
system
#8
There are plenty of Hikers that can’t find their way in the snow on Fuller ridge. There isn’t any reason to talk about too many signs in the wilderness because Fuller Ridge is not the Wilderness, tell John Donovan who lost his life on Fuller Ridge and it took two years to find his body that there is no need for any signs! The trail needs PCT trail markers above the snow line to help thru Hikers stay high and on the trail. Nobody has the right to say who shouldn’t be there or the Sierras. Small PCT trail markers above the snow will save lives. Think of others
No Trace
system
#9
I’ve seen people mark snow with spray paint in the winter. It sticks around for a week or more and leaves no trace once melted. I know I’m going to get hell for mentioning such an invasive idea, but it wouldn’t be permanent…I’m just sayin
Brett
system
#10
I know it’s a sensitive topic, and there is a lot of grey. But if you invoke Donovan’s name, then you could pretty easily go one more step and go on a campaign to rid Deep Creek canyon of rattlesnakes, since they have caused hiker deaths. Then shoot the grizzlies in Yellowstone. Maybe install heaters in places where snowstorms can hit. Etc.
There are dangers out there. We all have different standards for what people should do to eliminate dangers. But we’ll never eliminate all danger, and i’m not sure that adding signs in that area is the answer. How about making hikers pass a basic orienteering course before granting a permit? How about disallowing anyone from hiking anyplace where a death has occurred? I’ll bow out of the thread now. I really don’t mind the idea of more signs. I just mind the idea of protecting people from themselves.
markv
system
#11
It’s not such a big deal. I have no idea why people fret and worry and complain about fuller ridge every year. I’ve done it twice. If you are careful, aware, map-savvy and keep a cool head no challenge on the PCT is insurmountable, especially not fuller ridge.
If you lose the trail? BACKTRACK. What gets people ACTUALLY lost is LAZINESS. “Well, I just walked all those miles, I don’t want to have to go back! If I just cut over here I can probably find the trail…” – NO. If you are misplaced, do not try and luck your way out of the situation. Backtrack and start over from where you last saw trail, signage, or knew where you were for sure. Then try again. If you still can’t get it, sounds like it’s time to go back to town or take an alternate route.
And as far as fuller ridge goes specifically, the only people I ever see who are all concerned about it are prospective or armchair hikers. People who actually go up there, sure, they get lost, but you deal with it. Sometimes that means getting all f’d up and ending up at the foot on the mountain on some random forest service road, and sometimes it means having absolutely no trouble. I’ve seen both and been the second one.
Trust me. Keep your wits about you and it’s not an issue. If it’s bad weather, don’t leave town. It’s only a few miles from Idyllwild so there’s no excuse for not being able to anticipate the weather. And as markv said, there’s about 50 side trails that can get you off the mountain, not to mention you can SEE palm springs from pretty much everywhere. Most people in this section have a full pack of food and if the snow is bad enough to get you lost it means you can use it for water. Barring any injury (which no sign will prevent) there’s not that much danger.
Anyway, as all of you who are planning to thru-hike will learn, the PCT is all about hype. When you hike fuller ridge you’ll realize it’s not a big deal.
Joker
system
#12
I must take exception to the idea that lost is lazy and that all you would ever need to do to “find” yourself is to backtrack. I must admit that I have never been on the PCT, but I have often been in the wilderness and many established and well marked trails. It is possible and inevitable that if you hike long enough that you will get lost sometime and no matter how skilled you are will at sometime it will be an uncomfortable kind of lost. Luckily, most of us survive these experiences and learn from them. If you have ever been pinned down in a whiteout and you have to move or you are in the woods without any views to orient yourself with and you missed a turn a while back you know the feeling of being lost or at least disoriented. Generally well marked trails, like the PCT and AT, tend not to demand much route finding skill or much map reading skill and interpretation. I think it not too surprising that the skill level of many aspiring PCT hikers is such that they are challenged in parts of their hikes.
Flash
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#13
Laziness GETS you lost, is what I said. And this is all specific to the PCT, so don’t go trying to generalize everything on me.
Joker
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#14
100% with Joker.
You could always start a little later. But then it’s too hot in SoCal and you’ll never make it to Canada in time! Oh no! And the Mojave! And Evolution Ck crossing! Hat Creek Rim!
Personally,I would have no issue with the route being flagged to answer bowlegs’ question. I just don’t think it’s necessary.
Heaps
system
#15
Wow so much concern over an insignificant contour through snow. It turns out that there is pretty much a great trail left already by hikers who passed that way before you. If anyone is worried about navigation, just follow a group, or go with someone else who isnt worried.
Bowlegs, It’s awesome you want to do some trail angeling around So Cal. There are plenty of things you can do to help. Mainly drop as much water as you can anywhere near the trail. You dont even need to put it on the water report, people will need it. There isnt really a need to mark this section on Fuller Ridge that would kind of be overkill. Last year some jerk wrote “mice contaminated” on a bunch of piped water sources and such, and really brought people down. Of course there’s mice out there right so what. Dont waste your time marking a trail, who’s to say you would even know where to mark it if it was such a big deal anyway, which it’s not.
Any one can find their way there. It takes just a minute or two of map work now and then.
The PCT has enough signage. Too much gets annoying to look at. It’s a pain in the butt and bad for hiking pole tips to rip all those extroneous ones down anyway, which is a nice hobby. Anyway are you going to come back and retrieve all your ribbons and such or are you going to let your vain effort turn into someone elses problem after the pack comes through?
Guino
system
#16
Joker, I can see you did understand one part of my post that might have been lost on others venturing to this site. It does make me laugh when the very serious trail goers tell the newbies or those not familarr with all the aspects of “their trail” to butt out of the conversation. I know it is all specific to the PCT, so I’ll go HMOH and let you do the same. Additionally, I must add this type of monolithic ideology is just so strange to me.
Flash
system
#17
“If you are careful, aware, map-savvy and keep a cool head no challenge on the PCT is insurmountable, especially not fuller ridge.”
Translated: If you are reasonably trained (in map and compass navigation), reasonably equipped (the guide book with their maps) and reasonably determined, Fuller Ridge is not an issue.
Guino - latching on to some one is all fine and dandy, until you can’t keep up with them. Then what? Staking your life on some one else is a fools errand, unless they’ve agreed to baby sit you through what ever section gives the latch-ee the heebie jeebies. Last I checked, most folks are out to hike the trail, not guide their nOOb fellow so called thru hikers.
I personally experienced one of these latch on types in '06 and, quite frankly, no one really liked this person for it. They’re selfish, period, constantlly mooching off their fellow thru hikers. Then again, in this country now a days, that’s par for the course - “it’s SO HARD…some one better take care of me.” Wa, wa, wa…cry me a river and try a big hot cup of self reliance and quit the whining.
"I think it not too surprising that the skill level of many aspiring PCT hikers is such that they are challenged in parts of their hikes. "
Flash - these folks need to up their skill levels before setting out on the PCT, or any other trip that requires this level of skill and committment. Quite bluntly, they should be cutting their teeth on overnighters, short multi day’s and section hikes before stepping into the big leagues of a thru hike on the PCT. If they can’t handle a little snow on Fuller, and bluntly it is only a little bit of snow (you’re through it in under a day says the '06 vet), they need to either go around, wait 'till it melts, or go home. Some weekend sport climber type who kills himself trying El Cap deserves the title “Dumb @$$” for going in over his head. In a similar vein, some one who can’t follow, reasonably closely, the PCT when it’s buried in snow is also in over their head and deserves a similar label.
Harsh - heck yeah. But this is a harsh trail through unforgiving terrain and conditions, requiring serious preperation. For those that want a spoon fed experience, go elsewhere, as a thru hike of the PCT isn’t that. You will variously be cold, wet, hot, sun burned, blistered, hungry, thirsty, lost, confused, scared, exhausted, lonely, injured, in pain, filthy, stinky and a few dozen other adjectives I can’t come up with at the moment. Can’t handle that? Try something else. Up for it? You will have the best summer of your life, period, and I can’t recommend it highly enough.
YMMV, HYOH (just don’t expect your fellow hikers to hold your hand as part of your hike), 2 cents, yadda, yadda, yadda…
Token Civilian
system
#18
Personally if I decide to start the PCT at the border and end the AZT early which I might, I think it might be fun to try and figure out an albeit hothothot, alternate to head from the trail past pines to palms and drop to the canyon on the east side of San Jacinto that has a trail, and goes through a small reservation. This then pops out in Palm Springs, where there are several medical cannibis dispensaries, and do a big big big medicational resupply. Though I think from the I-10 crossing a taxi into Palm Springs would work too, and reduce the trek through a hot canyon to a nice walk along a cool mountain.
Though if the rumors about Palm Springs are true, A young man such as myself could get predated upon there.:smokin
Guino
system
#19
Well John Donovan never made it to Fuller Ridge, he was found in a canyon overlooking Palm Springs one year after he died. We had this debate a few months BEFORE he started his hike. Bottom line, maybe yes, maybe no, but it’s not our call, it’s the land managers, and they say no. If nothing else, stay with a group when things get tough. Better, have at least one in that group know how to use topo map and compass. Also, flagging, etc., is not reliable - it could flag a side trail (peak bagger, camp), it could be misplaced by someone lost, mark a tree to be cleared, etc. One or more could be removed when you get there. Even footprints aren’t reliable, a few years ago a hiker got lost, then found footprints and followed them to a second lost hiker. (They backtracked together the next day.)
Oh, the “trail” down to Palm Springs is not well marked, easy to lose going downhill if you haven’t been there, and is 8,000 feet of elevation loss in 10 miles. Take the tram.
AsABat