GoLite cheats Ray Jardine

imported
#1

Read here how GoLite screwed over Ray Jardine:

http://www.rayjardine.com/essays/golitesucks.shtml

Honest Abe

#2

It’s good to know this info comes directly from the source. never used golite in 7500 miles and counting. good to know I’ve never helped golite in it’s venture to be rich. it’s sad to know they still use Ray’s name.

hellkat

#3

Is this the guy?

Berkeley REI:
Fast-Packing 101: An Inspirational Evening
with GoLite Founder Demetri “Coup” Coupounas
7 pm, Tuesday, July 19
Last summer, GoLite founder Demetri “Coup” Coupounas hiked the 221-mile John Muir Trail, the 280-mile Vermont Long Trail and the 470-mile Colorado Trail in 10 weeks, carrying everything he needed for each ‘thru-hike’, without resupplying (except for water). Join Coup for slides and stories of his amazing ultralight adventure. Whether you’re planning an overnight or an expedition, don’t miss the opportunity to learn how to “go lite” from the outdoor expert who rocked the backpacking world with his line of lightweight gear and clothing! Door prizes will be provided tonight by GoLite.

:pimp

starfist

#4

Yep. That’s the guy. I prefer the French pronounciation of “Coup” as “Coo.”
Ray was pioneering 5.13 free routes up the nose of el cap in yosemite when Coo was pooping in his his diapers.

But hey, Coo hiked, what, 971 MILES in TEN weeks. WOW. My hero. An actual thru hike would probably grind him up. No credibility whatsoever, just flash.

Honest Abe

#5

OK, I will be less inclined to order from go-lite in the future, especially because good alternatives usually exist and Ray Jardine is a hero to me.

But cutting Coup down for walking 468 miles in 20 days without resupplying on the Colorado Trail? I’ve hiked some long hikes without resupplying and it is not as easy as Honest Abe seems to believe it is.

craigl

#6

Twenty days of hiking is flash, not substance. He burned plenty of body fat in that time.

Arrogance and ethical blindness don’t give him passes with me, no matter how slick his web site is or how charismatic or charming Coo may be in person. Building an entire business on Ray Jardine’s ideas then strealing the credit by making himself out to be some kind of hiking wunderkind places himm among the lowest of the low. But that’s just my opinion. I didn’t expect many people to touch this thread, in keeping with the sheep mentality that is so endemic today. People need to start opening their mouths against these emperors without clothes. I’m sure Ray would agree.

Next time you see Coo, ask him why he stopped paying Ray’s royalties. Ray’s ideas put Golite where it is today. Coo should be more respectful of the man.

Honest Abe

#7

GoLite makes excellent gear but unfortunately always gets dragged down by debates over personalities. How about focusing on the gear for a change.

Bonehead

#8

Go-Lite makes great gear if you don’t use it a lot. Most of what I’ve seen isn’t very durable. At least during the early years of Go-Lite.

There is a good reason why many of the outfitters that jumped on the Go-Lite bandwagon early on have jumped off. And it has nothing to do with personalities. It has everything to do with the flood of warranty issues that followed the sale of their products. More trouble than they are worth.

Go-Lite was in the forefront (well, close to the front of the pack) of the ultralight backpacking revolution. Ray Jardine was their catalyst. He’s not perfect, and IMHO a few of his ideas are kinda over the top, but I think he’s an honorable man. Can the same be said for Coupounas?

If this entrepreneur cut corners during the manufacturing of Ray’s ideas, resulting in shoddy merchandise, is it a stretch to believe he’d also cut corners in his dealings with Ray?

Skyline

#9

bonehead,

you must not be a long distance hiker or I guess you would understand how tight the long distance hiker community is. this thread was not created to discuss the merits of golite, it was created to discuss the poor ethics of a merchandiser. I just waited an hour for the coffee shop I’m at to open when there is a starbucks just across the street. not every hiker is into “keep it local” but after you have met a few “trail angels” and been taken care of by a local outfitter you will understand the importance of trail culture.
ps. 468 miles in 20 days? woop-te-do. the entire AT has been done in 42(or is it 39 now?) and that includes the whites. a guy did the toughest 180 miles of the whites in 3 days last year. like I said 468…woop-te-do, espically if he did it with gear he stole from RAY.

hellkat

#10

Skyline wrote: “Most of what I’ve seen isn’t very durable. At least during the early years of Go-Lite.”

Things must have changed quite a lot since the early days, as I’ve had my GoLite Gust for 4 years now and it’s bulletproof. The quality of the material and stitching is impeccible.

I haven’t thru-hiked, so am not into the “trail culture.” I hike for the woods and mountains, not to be caught up in more social gossip and crap. So if you don’t want to buy a golite product because of the social squabble between Ray Jardine and the GoLite owners, that’s one thing, but don’t knock the products because GoLite gear is excellent.

*BTW I’m not expressing an opinion on the Jardine situation, and haven’t even read up on it b/c I’m strictly a gearhead … and a Bonehead too. :lol

Bonehead

#11

In the hiker community, squabbles and fights are usually NOT a black and white thing…there’s usually three sides to a beef: There’s Side A which is one guy’s perspective; there’s Side B, which is the other guy’s story, and then there’s Side C, which is what actually happened.

Bottom line is that Jardine sold his name and reputation, ostensibly for the sole purpose of getting lightweight gear out to the most possible folks. Now, years later, he’s expressing dis-satisfaction wih the arrangement.

And he may have a perfecly legitimate beef. But so far, at least here, we’ve seen only one side of the story; there may well be another. Bottom line:

*We’ve only heard Jardine’s version of events.
*What is NOT in dispute is that Jardine sold his name
and received compensation and publicity for doing so.
Had he not done so, he wouldn’t have any troubles now.

B. Jack

#12

This is a very interesting thread. I first got into ultra-light hiking due to Ray Jardine’s book, but have since realized that much of his philosophy is too extreme for my taste. In the interest of fairness here is a link to the the second of the three points of view. We’ll probably never find out what the third p.o.v. is; the truth is far to subjective. http://www.golite.com/about/golite_and_ray_jardine.asp

Tim

#13

I wouldn’t say Ray has “any troubles” from any quarter. Ray is probably happy he’s not a part of GoLite anymore.

I just checked out the above link.
Ray was warned that he wouldn’t be paid until he talked nice about GoLite products. Ray apparently changed his mind, which his contract apparently made no provision for. When the circumstances surrounding the conditions of a contract change, does the contract still stand?

Hmmm. So Ray can’t change his mind; Ray can’t speak his mind: Those two conditions are hallmarks of the fearful and artificially self-important era in which we are all living, no small thanks to people like these profit-oriented weenies.

As for Coo, me thinks he protesteth too much. In fact, he sounds just like a corporate lawyer trying to save something. Teaches us all a lesson about the dangers of attachment. Ray Jardine has invented and innovated and pioneered so much in his lifetime, so far, as to make any future GlowLite accomplishments paltry by comparison. Overt threats by Coo that Ray has “devalued” the GoLite company is an open admission of Ray’s contribution to that very company.

Never change your mind, never speak your mind, just go along and you’ll be paid handsomely. There is a trend of mindsets here, a phychological disconnect between truth and reality that is profit-focused and is dangerous to free thought. Ray knows this. At least he took a small stand and ended his association with the silliness. Purchase your philosophy HERE, and become a part of the GoLite movement.
Or revolution.
Or whatever.

You can’t buy or sell what Ray is trying to get people to realize and understand in their souls.

To found a company to sell THINGS based on those ideas misses the point and is a doomed enterprise once consumers realize that buying lightweight gear --just more STUFF – won’t change what’s in their minds or improve their physical conditions or help them walk 50 miles per day. Ray is an extraordinary person who has been exceeding ordinary human accomplishment all of his life.
(With all honest and due respect, B. Jack, you spend much of your time working at outfitters selling gear of all kinds, so you’ve likely got a built-in bias toward the profit motive.)
See you out there, but not carrying golite gear.

Honest Abe

#14

With all due, respect, Honest Abe, if you wanna speak honestly, get your facts straight. As for your sage prounouncments on how I spend “much of my time”, I worked at Bluff Mtn. Outfitters in Hot Springs for about eight weeks last year; I worked at the Outfitter at Harpers Ferry for five. This was the first time in almost ten years (last time was February of 1996) that I’d worked “selling gear of all kinds” so for you to imply that I’ve got a “built-in bias towrds the profit motive” is simply untrue; it is statement based on complete ignorance of me and how I spend my time. If Honest Abe doesn’t agree with something I’ve posted, well that’s fine, but if he’s going to inform folks about how I spend “much of my time”, is it too much to ask that he get his facts straight first? I was working in 2004 because knee injuries prevented me from hiking at the time. I worked at Hot Springs for 3 weeks this spring to help out my friends who own the store, and to do something useful before I went down to Springer. I’ve been helping my friends in Harpers Ferry this week (for no pay, by the way…so much for the insidious “profit” motive) cuz they’re busy and need the help. For allegedly honest Abe to imply that I’m somehow poisoned or biased because of my “ties” to the world of business and retail is laughable and ignorant.

Re. this Jardine nonsense, all I said was that we should keep an open mind about this dispute before making up our minds…what I said, which I still believe, is that there are always several sides to a disagreement. You’re evidently only interested in hearing only one. Fine. I hope the rest of us can keep a reasonably open mind about this and then decide for ourselves which outdoor companies we wish to suport and which we do not.

Jack Tarlin

#15

Methinks, he protesteth too much.
When is an outsider an insider?
Two faces to every man or to every argument?
One CAN get lost in s sea of subjectivity, BJ.
Call it nonsense and use clever psychologically loaded wording to imply that you speak for the “rest of us,” but keep your biases in mind, too.
Money, it’s a hit, don’t give me that good, good, good, bullsh*t.
Money: Keep your hands off my stack…

You gotta love life in the New Rome.

Honest Abe

#16

I own not Go-Lite gear, and am not a Ray fanatic - although I feel a debt to him for the ideas he has introduced.

It seems to me that Ray honestly felt uncomfortable with the gear Go-Lite was putting out under his name and had every right to withdraw his endorsement and give his honest opinion of Go-Lite gear. Go-Lite had every right to stop paying him for his endorsement once he withdrew it and to stop making the things he had legitimate claims to having designed.

When friendships or marriages end in any community, some people feel the need to take sides whether out of loyalty or a sense of justice. Personally, I see no injustice here and see no need to take sides. I’ll continue to read what Ray has to say and give it serious thought, if a Ray-Way or a Go-Lite product meets my needs I’ll pick it up.

pedxing

#17

Having read both sides’ postings, it’s surprisingly hard to come down on Ray’s side of this. When I first started reading I fully expected it to be a clear case of Ray vs. The Corporate Evil. But it’s not.

First of all, Ray is not some barefoot messiah blissfully trying to spread his gospel to the people: He’s a business man, trying to make money. There’s nothing wrong with that, but some people clearly need to get that idea through their heads. He didn’t give his idea’s away on his website, he sold them in a book. He’s not giving away his designs for gear, he’s selling them.

Reading his diatribe against Golite clearly his biggest gripe isn’t the design ownership, or the quality, it’s the amount that he was getting paid. I know, I know, he says in the posting that it’s not about the money, but look at the phraseology: he only talks about the altruistic reasons for his break with GoLite at the end, he starts the rant off with no less than 6 references to how little he was getting paid. When writing emotionally, as Ray clearly was, you always lead with whatever has you most upset, you follow later with more rational justifications as you cool down. Ever write an angry letter, only to find yourself apologizing in it by the end? Same concept.

I do agree that Ray seems to have gotten taken for a ride, but he’s not a victim by any stretch. He tries to paint himself as one, “…persuaded me to sign a contract…”, but in it sounds more like he was just shortsighted. If he wanted more money, he should have negotiated for it. Likewise if he wanted design control. It would have been a simple matter to have his contract give him final say over the designs. But instead he either didn’t care, or didn’t think about it. Considering ray’s history with product endorsements and IP laws, I find it hard to believe that he didn’t think about controlling what he put his name on, leaving “didn’t care” as the most likely answer.

Speaking of Ray’s history, this all does bear some resemblance to when he “invented” the SLCD back in the '70’s, and the resulting lawsuits from that. (I imagine that most posting here are too young to remember that) He’s been down this road before, shame on him for not knowing where it would lead.

Although neither side comes out and says it, I’d be willing to bet that was got him in contractual trouble with Golite was a Non-Compete clause in his contract. If you notice, the bad blood started right about the time he started selling his own competing products from his site.

This is a business matter, not a good vs. evil matter. Ray saw an opportunity to make some easy cash from equipment. He was shortsighted in how he handed the deal, and is now abusing the position that he knows he holds in this community to turn himself into a victim. That’s not kosher.

Neat forums, by the way. I’ve been lurking here for months (years?) but never felt moved enough by anything to post. If you don’t agree with my opinions, that’s fine, you’re not supposed to. Just calling it like I see it, from my perspective as someone who’s been around for a while. YMMV, HYOH, etc, etc.

The Wandering Old Man

#18

“This is a business matter, not a good vs. evil matter.”

Ethics are at the base of all business transactions. When ethics fail, politics take over. When you begin separating good, evil and business into separate and exclusive cagetories, you have become a true believer in illusions and the victim of a culture that includes slick illusionists whose very survival depends on your gullibility. And that’s kosher, as long as the ruling elite agrees that it is and you agree to remain a sheep. Expert manipulators, they are, as Ray has learned. Ray is likely an idealist. There are a few of us left out here, you know.

Ray isn’t the one with the Ivy League, Princeton and Harvard, degrees. That would be Coo. It is interesting that the topics of good and evil should even arise in this thread, in this context. More protestations. Fascinating.

GoLite still sucks. We live in an era where businesses and the people who run them can and do do whatever they want, as long as it’s legal. Doesn’t matter if it’s the RIGHT thing to do or not. Corporate bodies are held blameless in all cases, like actual people without moral compasses, or, for that matter, brains.

“It’s not personal. It’s business.”
~~Ice T’s character in the movie “New Jack City.”

Honest Abe

#19

Geez, Abe, you’re getting tiresome. In your infantile anti-big business rant, you accuse me of being some sort of shill for the corporate world. I then explained that except for a few weeks this year and in 2004, I haven’t been employed in outdoor retail for almost a decade. This isn’t good enough for you…now, I’m using “clever psychologically loaded wording” to spread some insidious corporate message, and what’s worse, I’m trying to speak for other hikers.

Here’s the news, Einstein: There was nothing particularly complicated in my post or its wording; sorry if it was too much for you. And I’m speaking for ME; unlike you, Abe, I’m assuming that intelligent informed people can make up their own minds about this matter, once they’ve heard all sides of the story. If you’re only interested in hearing (or spreading) one side, well that’s your problem.

Abe, you started this anti-GoLite tirade for one purpose,which was to stir up s*** and cause trouble. When other folks suggested that we hear other sides of the argument, and when, in fact, that other side appeared,you weren’t interested in hearing it. Essentially,you initiated this dialogue so you could cheer one side of the dispute, and villify the other. More rational, more open-minded voices have commented on the matter, and you don’t like it. That’s your problem. Oh, and what’s your objection to Coupounas’ university degrees? So the guy went to Princeton? What’s your point?

Jardine sold his name and reputation for money, and now he’s unhappy with the result. His decision to do this was his own. If you think Go-Lite sucks, Abe, fine, that’s your opinion. But if you think your blind one-sided, strident, and ultimately ignorant posts are going to change anyone’s mind about this, you’re mistaken.

Jack Tarlin

#20

That’s a stunning world view you have there Abe, stunning. Depressing, but stunning nonetheless.

It’s interesting that you assume that Ray is the helpless victim because Coup has a Princeton degree, even though Ray has been up to his elbows in questionable business dealings since the mid 1970’s. (When, according to my math, Coupounas was in grade school) Ethics indeed.

Perhaps you need to broaden your mindset and not come into a debate with your opinion already set in stone.

Comments that Ray made in his posting got me thinking about back when this little partnership got going in the late '90’s. Specifically, I was thinking about the design and quality issues. A few things just strike me as odd: 1. The timeline. GoLite has been making flimsy stuff from the beginning. That’s not news. I wouldn’t touch the stuff, personally, because I’m not a fan of buying a new pack every spring. But Ray was perfectly happy to be associated with them for what, 4 or 5 years before speaking out? I don’t see the sudden indignation as being genuine, sorry. It just coincides too perfectly with Ray’s online store opening up, especially his announcement of their producing manufactured gear, and not just kits. 2. The designs. Went digging for an old article in Outside, with Ray and Coup, from back in '99. From that article: “But Jardine retains a prototype-killer clause: Should Erickson add weight, get flashy, or otherwise stray from the Ray Way, that version will be deep-sixed.” (Erickson produces the Golite stuff, alongside LLBean, Campmor, etc, to Golite’s spec’s, for those who aren’t aware of how these things work in real life)(http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/1299/199912golite1.html) So either Ray is lying now, or Ray was lying then, or Coup was lying then and Ray chose to an accomplice to the lie continue for 4 years, until it no longer suited his best interests. Either way, we’re back to that whole ethics thing again now aren’t we?

Whether or not GoLite “sucks” or not, as you so eloquently put it, has nothing to do with whether they cheated Ray or not. The more I read, the more it sounds like Ray was equally duplicitous, and if anything it was the pair of them cheating us, the consumer.

The Wandering Old Man