The rumors about VVR

imported
#1

If there are hikers who have stayed at the Vermilion Valley Resort and want to share their opinion, i’d be glad to hear from them. doldboy@yahoo.com
this is what i have to say about VVR, (this is JUST my opinion):

i worked at VVR for a spell (sept. 16th to oct. 19th)and heard a number of rumors running the Trail. most of them were truly founded tho a few i find tough to explain. i enjoyed my time waiting tables, doing dishes, and helping outside on occasion. i have respect for everyone i worked with. jim, the owner, is a hard working business-minded person and will be successful in his ventures. stan the head cook is an outstanding culinary artist who loves to see people eat well,(tho he likes to holler he is a very nice person). the whole crew gets along like a supremely disfunctional family, yet somehow they make VVR work thru the thick and the thin. i enjoyed them all.

the first, regarding packages: the mail system at VVR works like this. a SKILLED driver takes 45 min. to travel some 24 miles over a windy pot-hole ridden road to get to the lakeshore P.O. to pick up the mail and bring it back over the same 24 miles. this might be done while they pick up the SYSCO shipment (SYSCO refuses to drive the “road”) however, while picking up a full shipment of groceries, picking up a full shipment of parcels would be tricky at best. thus the 10$ service charge. (i think 10$ is steep but i’m not much of a business minded person.)
as far as selling items in the store out of hiker’s boxes, i believe it happens to those that are not picked up. in light of the previous statement it makes sense from the business standpoint. if the boxes are being reported missing or never recieved and the contents put on the shelves i was unaware and can shed no light on the subject. if someone else has a suspicious experience, please share. from what i saw i can understand how packages could get lost.
i didn’t see a filing system where the packages are stored, i didn’t look too hard either. one that might work would include a list of names and dates the packages were recieved to be checked off as they are picked up by the addressee.

being nickle and dimed: showers cost 5$ for a towel and a bar o’soap, laundry cost 5$, ferry ride round trip was 18$, meals cost anywhere from 7.95$ to 24.95$, the satellite phone cost 2$ a min. when it works (understandable), parcel pick-up 10$. (business, business, business, one can hike in dirty and hike out dirty to save 28 bucks) see above for meal costs. free stay in tent-cabin 4(still a tent) and free first beer. you balance the scale.

the evolution of VVR: the previous owner of the resort was famous on the trail for his hospitality and treatment of hikers. i heard a number of stories from the old timers and from repeat hikers that sounded delightfully entertaining. i also heard that he wasn’t making very much profit from the resort. the new owner wishes to create an environment that is friendly to the family as well as the high-roller types while keeping the hiker crowd happy. this is a broad spectrum of people to balance all while making payments on the resort. (i believe the business philosophies of the past and the present to be very different. some folks would sooner make a connection with another thru kindness and entertainment. others would make a connection thru the exchange of goods and services via capital exchange and see a sort of kindness in that. classic vs. romantic!) so has an era come to an end at VVR? everyone is subject to change, even jim.

jim has plenty to deal with at VVR. any impersonal behavior can be written off as a business expence and should not be taken personally nor as an assault on the PCT/JMT hiking community. if anyone does take the time to get to know him, they will find a normal man who loves the outdoors and is excited to help others enjoy nature in his own way.

one thing i think jim doesn’t wholly understand is how hikers are touched, changed, blessed, and sometimes saved from disaster by the network of trail angels along the PCT. many if not all of these people are giving from their hearts not just from their pockets.
theoretically a few hikers may have trouble digesting the contrast between the charity of the Saufleys and the Heitmans along the trail and the business environs of the VVRs. this by no means should serve to justify the actions but hopefully help shed some light on the matter.

the short of it is that we all walk our own walk and make our own decisions based on the convictions our paths have led us to. if something sits funny with your soul offer a solution in your critique and become part of your solution.
this world needs far fewer talkers and plenty more walkers.

many blessings to you all and happy travels,
DTA

dirty thumbs arbuckle

#2

This year, in May when finalising our plans for the Sierra, absolutely nowhere I rang could help. The rangers didn’t know when the road to Trail Pass would open, or whether Kearsarge would be passable. Muir Trail Ranch didn’t know about opening (although misinformed me that VVR would definitely not be open). Reds guaranteed not to be open. Same with Tuolumne.

Then I called Jim at VVR. He guaranteed me that no matter what, there would be somebody at VVR, and if we sent a parcel, he would get it there for us. If not, he promised that the store and kitchen would have enough food for us to resupply. Without this guarantee we’d have had to plan to leave over side passes and hike many more miles in the snow.

We arrived on June 11th at VVR. The road was still not open. All supplies had to come in by snowmobile and/or quadbike (often a combination of both). The fuel for the generator took a 24hr round trip from VVR to collect just 15 gallons (24hrs running time). We were outnumbered by staff, who all work for free until the road opens.

We experienced the most amazing hospitality. We paid $140 for 2 nights in a motel room, $140 for 12 meals (we ate a LOT!), $50 for resupply, and $20 for beer and ancillaries. All these prices were beaten at some point on the trail by what we had to pay in towns. It was a wonderful place, with the a lovely, peaceful calm atmosphere. I’m sure its different with 100 other hikers all lining up for food and beer, but we found it the perfect spot for a layover.

Dave

#3

I agree with everything that Dirty Thumbs and Dave say - unfortunately some rumors about VVR got out of control this year & many PCT thru-hikers missed a unique trail expereince.

Back in '97, when i first thru-hiked the PCT, VVR was legendary - considered by almost all hikers the very best stop on the PCT. Butch, the owner of VVR then, was more interested in partying with the hikers than his wallet & he often invited the PCT thru-hikers to stay (for free) as long as they wanted to. I remember lots of AYCE meals and live music along with an incredible feeling of comraderie.

This year, i had a different experience, but equally enjoyable in a very different way, thanks in part to dirty thumbs’ incredible hospitlity. The crew was interesting to say the least. Stan, the cook, for example, has a PHD in philosophy and was a Professor @ Berkely for a number of years. Jim is very different from Butch, and could never fill those shoes even if if he wanted to, but interesting in his own way. He gets a bad rap for being a business man in the mountains. Tom, the boat captain, has travelled and sailed around the world and has fascinating stories.

All the ‘stops’ on the Trail are different, and if hikers would come with an open mind, dropping their expectations, i think they might enjoy all of the characters and expereinces with perhaps one exception (Belden).

VVR these days is somewhat similar to how Rainbow Springs was on the AT when Jensine owned the place. She was trying to make a living in the mountains, and she spoke her mind on almost any subject. The hikers ended up either loving or hating the place.

I look at all of these privately owned ‘resorts’ as an opportunity to meet some interesting people and have a good time. If a PCT hiker is on a really tight budget and he/she thinks that all the people along the trail are there to open their houses up for free, then they might be dissapointed at VVR. On the other hand, if they go to VVR with an understandng of how difficult it is to get supplies there and to enjoy GREAT food at a resonable price, a free night stay in a tent cabin, and a free drink, then by all means enjoy the great experience.

happy trails! freebird

freebird

#4

Piper and I stayed at VVR for three nights toward the end of June. I was several days behind Dave (and Michelle). I did a day and a half of work for stay; shoveling pine needles, working the wood splitter, hauling lumber, etc. I lived for free in the bunkhouse and ate for free (basically) as well. I paid 70 dollars total for three showers, laundry, maildrop pickup, nine meals (average cuisine), beverages, three nights stay. I had an enjoyable, inexpensive, time at VVR.

Personally, the staff of VVR is awesome, fun, and quite unique. Professionally, the place is run like a “3 Stooges” comedy. I have a few stories of my own to add to the regular list of grievances, but I’ll keep quiet. My sense is that the staff does not work well together, either while running the resort or while hosting hikers. I believe that VVR will continue to be a PCT mainstay, until some other option (say, Muir Ranch) becomes available. In the meantime, VVR seems to be evolving into a Warner Springs-type of trail stop; not loved, but a necessary evil. I far prefer my VVR experience than carrying food from Kennedy Meadows to Mammoth Lakes.

JewelThief

#5

I don’t begrudge anyone from making a living and surely noone “owes” it to hikers to provide free/cheap services.

My only issue would be if prices for services are unclear or if there is some kind of bait and switch or pressure to use services that you don’t want.

Towards that end, VVR would do well to clearly state their prices and policies.

As for selling unclaimed food: it may be illegal for one thing but I personally wouldn’t mind if my unclaimed food was sold or given away. The alternative is to throw it away.

If people don’t like the prices they can always bypass.

jalanjalan

#6

i think the issue w/ hiker food being sold is people seem to have a problem if food is taken out of the hiker box and put on the shelves. that food was put there by hikers for other hikers. but as far as food that was mailed to the lakeshore po, picked up by vvr staff and then not picked up, i could see that food being put up for sale to offset the $10 pick-up fee. i guess as long as it is stated that mail drops not picked up will be sold in the store.

jerm

#7

The guy has to make a living. To me is sounds silly for anyone to overly-critize the price of anything in the Wilderness.

Remember a lot places exist that just choose not to cater to hikers.

And we don’t come year-round. think about it

Tha Wookie

#8

The hiker box food is the main issue. Many 2003, 2004, and 2005 hikers believe that the VVR staff was taking food out of the hiker box and selling it in the store.

I personally believe that everyone was fine with the prices, mostly for the reasons already stated here. But when they started selling “our” stuff, that’s what pissed people off. And then it snowballs. Once people are irritated about one thing, then they think about everything else, etc, etc, etc.

On the VVR website, it clearly states that hiker boxes which are not picked up after one month of the ETA are opened and the contents will be sold in the store. But many hikers supposedly saw food they themselves put into the hiker box which ended up for sale in the store the next day.

That’s the main issue. Once you’ve got people riled up about something as personal as HIKER FOOD, you better watch out.

yogi

www.pcthandbook.com

yogi

#9

Yogi, you talk about Hiker food in the Hiker box. OK, I’m a rookie here, but if a hiker leaves food in a box (call it a hiker box if you will) at VVR, it would seem to me that it becomes the property of VVR. If VVR wanted to, they could simply eliminate the hiker box altogether and ask the hikers to carry out all the food that they bring in or have sent. I like the concept of Hiker boxes, don’t get me wrong, but hey, in part, this guy makes a portion of his business on hikers buying from his store and the products that he went to a lot of work to bring in for the hikers convenience. If the hikers leave food for others, he loses out. And, at the end of the year he and his staff need to deal with anything left in the hiker boxes. I know a lot of hikers will think I’m full of it for posting this, but as a business person I can understand a different point of view. And, in 2006 it might just be me that is looking in the hiker box (hopefully though I will have planned my food drops such that I won’t need to rely on this concept!).

Jeff

#10

When I buy food in a store, I like to think that it came from a source that can be trusted to make sure the food is safe.

I would not like it if the food being sold was left at the store by a homeless n’er do well.

Bob J

#11

All along the PCT and AT, the towns have “hiker boxes”. These are at PO’s, hostels, outfitters, etc. If you have food, gear, shoes, reading material, etc. you don’t want, you put it in the hiker box for other hikers to use. The whole concept is one of SHARING with fellow hikers. Sharing, not selling.

Now, like I said, the VVR website states that they’ll sell stuff from unclaimed hiker resupply packages. That’s a whole different thing than food from a hiker box.

yogi

www.pcthandbook.com

yogi

#12

I thru-hiked the PCT this year and found VVR to be both one of my best and worst stops all at the same time. Jim’s staff is the salt of the earth in my opinion. But, his businuess practices leave a bit to be desired in my opinion. I rolled through towards the end of the main push and with all those people passing through somehow the two 55-gallon drums that are the hiker box were virtually empty. While my partner and I had a great time there, I’m not sure if our time was worth the $450 our tab was at the end of 2 1/2 days. The most irritating thing about the hiker food taken from the hiker box and placed on the shelves was that our of the 4 people I hiked with that all bought food from the store every bit of it was past its expiration date. How long do you have to hold on to a lipton for it to be a year past its expiration date? Plus I picked up some sun dried tomatoes that ended up being 2 years past their expiration date. That’s just unacceptable in my opinion.
VVR is what it is. As long as you realize that in advance it’ll be cool.

Little Tom

#13

My last trip through VVR was '02, while Peggy was running the place. That was just after Butch left us and before Jim bought the place.

All the energy bars they sold at that time were beyond expiration. I always check. Next time you’re in you local mega grocery store, check the dates. They do it too. Did I really care? No. I still bought a few to supplement my food package. I have energy bars here at home that are past expiratiion. Do I throw them away? No, I eat them first.

My first stop was for milk when I got to VVR. They had 1 half-gallon left. It was 2 days past expiration. I told the cashier about it. She said, “make that your first free drink”. They didn’t charge me for it. The milk was fine and the gesture on their behalf was awesome.

This whole expiration thing seems to be the bulk of the complaints about VVR. In my opinion, it’s all just a bunch of pointless whining.

VVR is a fabulous place and I was truly grateful for the location.

If you’re so put out by their business practices, go another 1.5 days to Reds Meadow. Let’s hear you whine then.

Scott Parks
www.DelNorteResort.Com

Scott Parks

#14

The prices at VVR are what they are. I entirely expected it, it is certainly a remote and handy spot, so I am willing to give Jim some cash for his services.

However, the value is SO awful, that I think the place should be skipped. It was one of our worst stops. I had a BIG problem particullarly with GOING TO BED HUNGRY after eating a $20 PASTA meal. We all asked for more (about 5 hikers made their desires VERY clear), were told it was “all gone”, and 15 minutes later saw 3 HUGE servings of pasta rolled out for the staff. Those plates of staff pasta are truly probably the single worst image of my entire hike.

The accomodations are nothing special (dirty plastic lined mattresses with no bug-netting), and the ferry has the feel of paying $25 to park outside a $150 concert.

Given all that, I do have a wonderful memory of being entertained by Boots McFarland and chilling with folks by the fire after getting the snowy Sierras done. Fact is, though, it ain’t worth it. I would skip it and just wait to eat at Red’s Meadow.

Hans Berg

#15

I agree with Hans, that VVR is no longer one of the premiere stops along the PCT, and that skipping it would certainly not be a tragedy. Go from Kennedy Meadows and resupply in Independence, from there go straight on to Red’s Meadow. You still get a long stretch of continuous hiking through the High Sierra.

My story is this, take it or leave it: I remember Jim, ringing me up at the cash register, adding a 10% charge to one of my meals. I asked him what the charge was for. He smiled and said, “Forest Service Tax”. He explained to me, while still smiling, that VVR’s 9-acre parcel is on a National Forest lease. I looked back at him, feeling slightly dumbfounded. Despite the fact that I had never heard of such a thing, I did not argue with him. Walking out through the door, after paying for an expensive meal that was served partially cold in portions that seemed far from generous, I felt insulted by the so-called “Forest Service Tax”. As if the “tax” were the final blow to a situation where I already felt like I was being taken advantage of.

Despite this, and more, I had an excellent time at VVR. It was a great place to just sit around, recover from the high passes, drink beers, share stories, watch the fire burn, pass the guitar, go swimming, etc.

Intruder

#16

I just had to respond to the “Forest Service Tax”. Not only is there not such a thing, but what Jim did was highly illegal and probably would be of great interest to the Forest Service. Seriously, that kind of action would quickly close the place down and put him in jail. The government does not take lightly to private individuals who, in the name of the government, charge extra ‘taxes’.
Not to mention the scummy ethics involved.
This is sounding like quite the place indeed.
Intruder, you should make a phone call.

Mountain Sky

#17

Well I had the chance to visit VVR in 2003 on my first thru hike and it was amazing, spent over $200+, I would tell others never to pass it up!! BUT… in 2005 a completly different place for me, and the others I was with was their 2nd time there too. I’ll NEVER GO BACK.

In 2005 I figured I would try something different and work, so I did, along with another hiker, we both washed dished together and other things, when it was time to pay out tabs, he got 15$ more knocked off his tab, I found this odd though Jim didn’t have anything to say.
Also food portions were very, very small this time. This could be because we arrived right before a HUGE group left and it was the 4th of July weekend. But while working with the cooks they mentioned to Jim they needed more eggs and the sort. I guess that is why my single egg 13$ denver omlet was so small, maybe the reason all the other portions were… Jim said I could of sent it back, well he’s right, but dose that make sence in the mind of a hungry hiker? I would think that food would be a high priority on a holiday weekend, since many people drive back there then… Jim kept asking me where all the hikers are, and how his numbers are down as a result… umm lots of snow maybe? everyone is behind schedule…

Ok food problem not a big deal i guess, but a hiker in EXTREME need was. So we got there, and someone I was hiking with had a major infection on his foot, could barley walk, high fever, etc… Tried to work things out with Jim to get some medical attention, Jim set up a ride with his mechanic who was heading out to go home anyhow, no special trip down the road, yes I know how bad the road is, but this guy is leaving anyhow, going to his home… all for the nice price off $120 PLUS gas!! ya you make the call… we got a nice preson who was in the camp to dive him down for free after asking the first person with a car…

I could go on about the differences I saw from 2003, but there isn’t any point, I think it is different for everyone, just like someone getting a defective piece of gear, and someone else has had if for years and it works fine… guess my luck of the draw this time…

Anowhow overall if indeed I do make a 3rd hike of the PCT I’ll pass VVR, glad to hear others I knew from 2005 had a great time, without any issues… Maybe it was my timing, more people came thru, who knows but they lost this customer until a new owner comes along…

Next time I’d do what Intruder mentioned, Kennedy to Independence, then to Reds, and probably live it up in Mammoth if needs being. Independence has a great resturant to hit up, check out Yogi’s book, and well it is another AMAZING section to hike on the PCT many don’t ever see…

~
batteries

Batteries Included

#18

Sounds like this place is the Uncle Johnies of the PCT.

I’m heading near there this August and am now seriously reconsidering. Forest Service Tax…thats ridiculous and it should be posted on the menu or included as part of the price.
I generally don’t mind if people need to charge more but I can’t stand it when they try to sneak it by you at the last minute.

As for the injured friend: I can understand the charge for gas but the additional fee is outrageous!

:mad

Striker