When do you start the az trail?

imported
#1

When do most folks start the az trail for a thru hike?

Lanewman

#2

Northbound, there have been quite a lot of March and even February starts recently, but i think early April is still the most common start. May is tough. It depends on how well you deal with extreme heat vs. your comfort level on snow. You’re hiking between 2000’ and 9000’ for the first couple weeks, so no start time is ideal for all terrain.

Southbound i know less about, but i’m assuming most people would start in September or October???

markv

#3

Markv’s post above exactly echoes all I’ve seen and heard about AZT hikes. This year early April was a little tough because of heavy snow even on the southern peaks, but it was passable.

Garlic

#4

I’ve been reading the German Tourist’s NBD updates & her snow slogging makes it seem like this would be a good year for a may start! Now on the way to Flagstaff, she has had double triple hell from the overgrown tree-trail that they barely were able to fight thru & had to camp right on trail several times & took an extra day from what they expected. She also had trouble on a ranch where the gate-man said no trespassing even though the guide says ok! I wish I could head up there & do some machete work to make it more passable, good luck, all. Let me know if u need the emails forwarded. gbm

gingerbreadman

#5

I started mid-April last year. Weather was perfect cept for 2 or 3 days of new snow near Pine. Trail was still easy to follow just a little cool (20s) at night.

bowlegs

#6

Where can these updates be found. I was attempting a hike from sunflower to the gc but had to abandon due to some bad blisters and don’t know if it would be safe to start in pine again or to just scrape the whole trip. The reason I say safe is because the mazatals where hell and I don’t think I could ever do hiking like that again, I just wanna make sure where I start tere is a somewhat easy to follow trail (where I don’t loose it for half hours at a time) and I don’t climb 3000 feet per day( I understand the rim is am exception).

Sorry about venting I was just planning on hiking all summer but now I’m stuck doing nothin!

Will

#7

They’re pronounced MAD-as-hell for a reason :slight_smile: That part of the trail is definitely in the worst shape. Past Pine, it should get a lot easier. I don’t know about blowdowns, but the terrain from the Rim to Flag is generally flat. A little birdie told me that the ATA met recently with the Tonto forest to discuss how fixing the Divide Trail should be a priority.

Sirena

#8

thru hiking in march 2011 and would like to know what are the best maps/gps/topos to use. I have downloaded all of what the ata has but still am unsure of the correct gps machine. Are there certain parts of the trail harder to navigate than others? I would appreciate all the help I could get.

shannon

#9

So, here is an important bit of info from the GT with info on how to get on her mailing list at bottom!!! GB

GT: In Saguaro NP there is a bit of trail that is not finished yet. John - the Gentleman hiker - claimed that is has been flagged, but I decided to avoid it anyways. My maps showed a dirt road around it: X9 Ranch Road. After the Florida Trail I love road walks and therefore I decided to hike that :wink:
I made it 1 mile along X9 Ranch Road when I came to a gate house. Law-abiding model hiker that I am (or being made after my FT experiences with prescribed burns and military bases) I stopped and tried to find the gate keeper. Bad idea! The gate keeper turned out to be a not too smart, minimum wage guy afraid to loose his job - and that means that he would not let me through. Private road, private property, no one to ask for permission and no clue about alternatives. Great! This is when I should have left and sneaked around the gate house to continue hiking on that road.

Instead I decided to hike back and try the flagged unfinished AZT trail. Bad idea! The AZT trail petered out, the flagging led to nowhere and I ended up bushwhacking in cactus land for 2 hours in midday heat without finding any trail, flagging or whatsoever. Luckily I had a GPS, so I did not get lost, but I was definitely running out of ideas - and time!!! I made a last bushbash back to the private property, climbed a lot of fences and finally cut through to the famous X9 Ranch road, 1,5 miles past the infamous gate house with the gate keeper. I realise that the guy had just been doing his job, but at that point I was cursing him. What should have been an easy hiking day turned into a bushwhack from hell. Even on the famous X9 Ranch Road I felt horribly and was wondering when I would be caught trespassing by a rancher with a shotgun.

I did not get caught and in fact I did not see any cars on the road, but I was very relieved to make it inside the National Park - 4 hours later than expected… And then I still had to do a 3,000 ft eleveation gain… I arrived at the designated camp site just minutes before sunset. Very exhausted and with a lot of foot pain.

Next day should get me over Mica Mountain - another 3,000 ft elevation gain and an unknown amount of snow. I set out early in the morning and hit the snow pretty snow. First things were not too bad. The snow was only knee deep, but soft. It took me a long time, but it was not dangerous. Things got worse when I made it over the top of the mountain and had to descend on the North side (read North = no sun = more snow). And after a forest fire the North Slope was totally exposed. I had to traverse an incredible steep slope in knee deep snow. I don’t think I have been in any real danger, but I thought it was better not to look down…After 15 minutes (that seemed to last much longer) the traverse was over and I was out of the snow. And no more negative surprises… Dale and Gloria picked me up and took me to Tucson (and a shower, laundry, food and a bed).
But talking about bad surprises: All of a sudden I am having foot problems again. Apparently it is so dry here that my feet are chafing. I have raw spots on the soles of my feet and some days I was in so much pain I was limping. In order to remove the problem I took out my insoles to avoid rubbing. It resolved the problem at the soles of my feet, but now I have raw spots on my heel. I hope that my rest day here in Tucson will be enough that everything heals.

Also my clothes are taking a turn to the worse. It is so hot here (in comparison with Florida) and I am sweating so badly that my shirt has a white crust of dried sweat on it every night. My shorts stand up on their own - so dirty are they. My socks are smelling of a mixture of sweat and chemicals (my shoes are new…) - the stink is so bad that I cannot stand having them in my tent at night.

The-big-trip mailing list
The-big-trip@coulmann.de
https://ssl.coulmann.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/the-big-trip

gingerbreadman

#10

Well, I wisht she would have a blog here, but I will post the most important entries for present & future hikers:
, April 6, 2010 2:56 PMFrom: “German Tourist” cgeth@yahoo.de GT: the logistics worked out fine in the end. Garlic drove me to Phoenix airport where I had to say good bye to him and his cute dog Daisy. (If I ever have a real dog myself, it will be one like Daisy…). I took a shuttle bus to Tucson (yes, there is some sort of public transportation here in AZ) where I was picked up by John, an AZT member. John gave me a lot of info on the AZT and brought me all the way to the border.

The closer we got, the more worried I got. I could see that the mountains were really still covered in snow. And John told me that just recently a rancher in this area had been killed by illegal immigrants. All great news for the start of a new trail at the Mexican border…

We had a great lunch at a Chinese AYCE in Sierra Vista, but at that point it felt more like my last meal before execution… Things got even worse when we stopped at the local visitor centre and the ranger told me that I was not even allowed to camp at the picnic area at Montezuma Pass. Only law enforcement was allowed inside the park after dark. He told me to hike on another 2 miles (and 600 ft elevation gain) to the first ‘legal’ camp site outside the park. And seeing tons of border patrol on our way to Montezuma pass did not improve my mood either.
John dropped me off at 3 pm and then I was on my own… I hiked the 2 miles to the border and back. Then I had only 1 hour of daylight left and did not want to hike another 2 miles at all. I spotted a border patrol guy at Montezuma pass picnic area and decided to play stupid female German Tourist. It worked! Although the officer mentioned that the the park would be closed he did not have any problem with me staying there over night! In fact, he told me that there would be border patrol there 24/7 and I would be very safe. Happily I pitched my tent there - but did not get much sleep that night. Border patrol kept coming and going and I was very worried about the snow situation.

I got up early next morning and ran into another border patrol guy who gave me the thumps up for my hike. He had done it 2 days ago (for work!) and said the snow would not be much of an issue. And he was right!!! I had a lot of problems with the elevation (no wonder after 3 months at sea level) and it took me forever to get up that mountain, but the snow was not bad. The illegals had beaten a path through it, the snow was very compact and I rarely sunk in. I only made 12 miles that day, but I slept wonderfully that night - and no illegals whatsoever…

I have been hiking 3 days now and I am still adjusting - that means I am hiking less than 20 miles per day. The heat and the elevation gain are getting to me. Plus I hurt the bottom of my foot while swimming in an ice cold cattle tank and now every steps hurts. I also seem to have a zipper issue: Both the zippers on my tent and sleeping bag broke and I am trying to find out how to repair that. (Luckily I have some experience in that field from John’s tent…)

But I love the AZT: Wonderful scenery, great trail and due to all that snow there is water everywhere (well, everywhere here means according to AZ standards…)

I am in Patagonia right now and already had breakfast. Now I will go for lunch. And I have already done my resupply and a real crappy expensive small town store. Lots of Top Ramen noodle soup for the next days…

gingerbreadman

#11

After my wonderful stay in Tucson with trail angels Dale and Gloria (and their 4 dogs) it was time to tackle the last snow of the trail around Mt. Lemmon. Mt. Lemmon is actually a ski area and there was supposed to be a lot of snow left there. Luckily I had a look at my maps before I left and realised that the actual AZT route over the top of Mt. Lemmon is not recommended anymore due to a devastating forest fire and the damage it has done to the trail. I thought that the snow could not be that bad then… but I was wrong again.

The hike up Mt. Lemmon took forever. The scenery was incredible beautiful and a lot of water, but it took forever. It took that long that I realised I would not make it to my planned camping spot - I decided to camp on the next pass instead. I arrived at the pass at 6 pm only to realise that it was totally exposed. Not that there was a thunderstorm to be expected, but I wanted to be cautious… My guidebook said that there was a rocky, steep climb ahead that will SOON peak out at a stand of ponderosa pine. That sounded like a wonderful camping spot - ponderosa pine. SOON could not be very long - maybe another 15 minute hike? I ended up hiking another hour doing almost 1,000 ft elevation gain on a climb from hell when I realised that SOON is a relative word. No stand of ponderosa pine in sight and the daylight already fading… but then I found a little flat spot - totally exposed of course but by now I was too tired to care and just pitched my tent. Luckily no wind or storm that night…
Early next morning I hit the snow at 7,000 ft - and stayed in it for almost the rest of the day. I was hiking the “Wilderness of Rocks” Trail, the officially recommended detour due to the forest fire. Well, if this trail is recommended because the other one is so bad, I don’t want to see the other one. My Wilderness of Rocks trail turned out to be real wilderness (read: no trail built and no trail blazes - you just have to guess where the trail might go… that is what female intuition is for!). Things got really bad when this trail started climbing and I really hit the snow. I was alternating between knee deep snow, huge blowdowns and a lot of trail guessing. I scratched up my legs pretty badly, ended up with a very wet butt due to unintended glissading and wondered what the Forest Service people are doing the whole day long with American tax money. Apparently they don’t do any trail maintenance. But I made it through and will longingly think back of all that snow when I’ll hike in the desert.

gingerbreadman

#12

GT: First of all the water situation is pretty demanding, despite the fact that due to all the snow there is more water than usual. I had to carry up to 7 liters of waters (read: 7 kg weight!!!) for some stretches. And of course, just before the longest waterless stretch my Platypus bottle broke reducing my water capacity from 7 to 4,5 liters. I hate Platypus bottles - I have already changed about 10 of them because they broke in similarly crucial situations. Luckily The on-trail water can be pretty nasty as well. I had to drink out of cattle troughs before, but these ones here are especially nasty. Not only are there floaties in the water but thousands of dead bees! I don’t know why, but there are bees everywhere and apparently they are attracted to water - where they drown!

Second, beside the bees the rattle snakes are a real nuisance here. I have seen more rattle snakes here on the AZT in 2 days than I have seen on the whole PCT! And they really do spook me out. I nearly stepped on a couple of them and one was even nesting right on the trail. I have given up listening to my MP3 player while hiking - too dangerous! I want to hear their rattle so I am warned of their presence. Today one rattle snake startled me so badly that I lost my balance while trying to sidestep it and fell down! I did not feel very comfortable lying on the ground with my backpack on like a turtle on its back within striking distance of a rattle snake…I have also been attacked by a calf! I was just turning around a switchback when I little calf ran INTO me! It scared the **** out of me and for a second I thought it is a bear. The calf panicked and did not seem to know what to do. It wanted to run away and stay with me… We were both on a very narrow trail and instead of staying behind me it ran after me passing me on the trail trying to get away from me. It was heart breaking to see its efforts when it fell into the the thorn bushes, but I really did not know what to do… I quickly hiked on to get away from it and nearly stepped onto another rattle snake… Life is dangerous here.

With all the snow here the desert is still in full bloom. There are flowers everywhere - a truly amazing sight. Everything is green and looks like a English country lawn - but only from a distance. As soon as you try to pitch your tent you realise that the ground is rock hard. I am having a hard time getting any tent stakes in. And this ground is not very comfortable to sleep on - hard, lots of little pebbles and prickly things everywhere. I check the ground very carefully every evening before I lie down on my therm-a-rest and so far - knock on wood - no hole in my sleeping pad.

gingerbreadman

#13

GBM: This may be the most crucial info for you to know!!!

GT: I left Superior with very good news: Li, a CDT hiking friend had sent me an email wanting to join me for a couple of days on the AZT. Li is known to hike 30 mile days and he hiked the entire AT and CDT in ONE season - I definitely cannot keep up with that pace. But we talked on the phone and he promised to “regulate” himself. I had been doing 20 - 22 mile days recently and that was ok with him. We agreed to meet in Roosevelt. What he had not mentioned is that the stretch between Roosevelt and Pine is the hardest on the whole AZT. What we both did not know is that there would be some aggravating factors… So we met with 6 days worth of food and good spirits.

Li had even brought me a breakfast burrito from civilization and showed me new highlights of outdoor cuisine: He made “grasshopper pie” for us for dessert three times. That recipe includes lots of mint oreos, jello and even more alcohol which he carried in a mini platypus. That is culinary dedication! This dessert looks kind of disgusting, but tastes wonderful. The more alcohol, the better. And we needed a lot of that…

It all started already on day 1 of hiking together. After a 3,000 ft elevation gain (which was not too bad) we came across new trail. The trail had been built in 2004 - and NEVER ever been maintained after that. To say that it was overgrown is an understatement. We were crawling through catclaws and manzanita at a pace of less than 1 mile per hour. It soon became apparent that we would never make it to our planned camp spot. Unfortunately, we did not have enough water to dry camp - not to mention that there just was no place whatsoever where to camp. We were traversing a steep slope. When it got dark we came to a saddle with some pitiful campsites, but no water. We decided to hike on in the dark to the next creek. The trail got a bit better and we made it to water when it had just gotten pitch dark. But where to camp? There was a fire ring, but no flat spots. And therefore for the first time in my entire life and after even completing the whole triple crown I had to do something I had never done before: I slept right on the trail!!!
The wind was blowing so hard that we could hardly cook our late dinner. Li made his famous grasshopper pie for the first time and we really needed it! I fell asleep amid manzanita and tremendous gusts of wind.
Surely this bad trail would not continue - but we were wrong. Because the next day we entered the area of the huge 2004 wildfire. And apparently there had been no trail maintenance after that. And that meant we were climbing over blow down trees for the next 4 days. To make it more interesting the whole trail was also overgrown with raspberry bushes on steroids. No raspberries though, just the thorns. We were both in long-sleeved shirts and pants. You can stand this situation for 1 day and think of the great achievement afterwards. You might even be able to stand it for 2 days and still be proud of it. But after 3 days you just hate it!!! We ended up camping right on trail for a second time, because we were never able to hike 20 miles in that crap! Li learnt a lot of German swear words as I was trying to limbo under blow downs. By the way: I learnt some new English expressions from Li as well! For example: ““It is time for a morning constitutional when the turtle is poking its head out…””. Now you Germans: What could that mean?..
On day 5 we realised that we would never make it in our planned 6 days. Well, Li would have made it - but not me. Luckily I had an extra day’s worth of food I could share with him. On our last day we were eventually out of the forest fire area and the only problem was a very rocky road. I felt like being drunk balancing on football sized rocks for a whole day - but hey, that was nothing compared to the days before. But then it got colder and colder. I was teasing Li when he put on all his warm clothes and mentioned something about snowing. Surely it would not snow in Arizona end of April. But it did!!! We ended up in a snow storm - no kidding. In Germany it hardly ever snows that hard. We sought shelter among pine trees and I expected to wake up in a foot of snow… but luckily it stopped snowing overnight, but it got bitter cold. Our water bottles froze - but hey, I am used to that from Southern Florida. I love hiking in an El Nino year… So eventually on day 7 we made it back into civilization - frozen and completely out of food, but alive and healthy.

–

gingerbreadman

#14

“How to get your ass kicked on the AZT!”
After a day in Phoenix with resupply and exchanging broken Platypus bottles and abused shoes Li brought me back to the trail. The next stretch would be easy, said Li. Just a short climb up the Mogollon Rim and then flat hiking for 5 days. Piece of cake really…

But again: What could go wrong did go wrong. It started on day 1. I was happily hiking up the Mogollon Rim looking at my GPS every once in a while. It worked fine one moment - but when I tried to switch it on 5 minutes later, nothing happened. Absolutely nothing! It was dead. Surely that would be the batteries… Still I was not happy: 4 more days of hiking with no GPS on the AZT is not an ideal situation. Doable, but not ideal.

I hiked on less happily, but still in relatively good spirits. This is when it started snowing - on MAY 2nd in Arizona. Not just snowing, it was rather dumping. I could hardly see a thing. And it was damned cold on MAY 2nd… I pitched my tent and hoped for the best. Well, it stopped snowing, but it froze. I was bitterly cold at 22 degrees Fahrenheit and started to really get pissed with the trail, the weather and everything.

I woke up at 5 am and had breakfast. It surely could not get worse now - but it did. I bit on my granola - and something did not feel like granola. It was a gold inlay that had come off my tooth that very moment…I was about to cry. Here I was with no GPS, freezing my ass off and on top of that having a dental problem. Great! Did I mention that the batteries on my watch were dying as well? (I have to mention for the non-hikers that you need a watch for navigation - you time your progress to find out how far you hike.) The only thing that still worked was my cell phone.I met some Forest Service employees later that day who gave me extra batteries for my GPS! I was very happy - but just for a moment, because even with new batteries the GPS would not work. It was dead… Later that day Colin, a British AZT hiker and aerospace engineer showed up. He disassembled the whole thing, but it still would not work. His verdict: Ditch it!!! Hey, just ditch a 300 EUR GPS! But he was right. Warranty period was over and it would be more expensive to repair it than to buy a new one.

I hiked on getting lost only once without my GPS, chewing only on the left side of my mouth and with no sense of time due to lack of watch, but somehow I made it into Flagstaff. I got an appointment at a dentist immediately, paid 250 $ and got my tooth fixed. Then I bought a new battery for my watch. Half of my problems where solved now, but what about the GPS? Flagstaff outdoor shops did not really have a great selection of GPS and especially not the ones I wanted. But I did not want to hike on without one either, because of - (hey, you might have guessed it), the next stretch was still snow covered. In fact people are still skiing now here!

Then another miracle happened. I met Colin and his hiking partner Kimberlie in an outdoor shop. Kimberley was getting off trail for the next stretch and I just asked her about her GPS - and she lent it to me! So I will leave tomorrow with a working watch, good teeth and a GPS, hurray! Life is good!

gingerbreadman

#15

I had a wonderful time in Flagstaff - after getting my tooth fixed! I stayed at the DuBeau hostel, a very nicely renovated 50’s hotel. Free local calls, nice library, free breakfast and a very nice atmosphere. And a big coincidence happened there. I was sitting in the internet and coincidently started talking to another guest - and it turned out the he is a triple crowner as well! I am on the AZT, whereas he (Pinball Wizzard) is hiking the Hayduke trail. I could hardly believe this coincidence and after this meeting all my sightseeing plans went overboard. We spent the rest of the day eating and chatting.

But alas, next day I had to leave and go hiking again. Although I had become extremely paranoid about my teeth and all my electronic equipment now on this stretch nothing broke. Well, almost nothing, as my pants ripped and I had to do an emergency surgery on this dying patient.

I realise that you will find this hard to believe but it snowed on me again in mid-May! First I had to hike through tons of snow through the San Francisco peaks. Snow, snow, snow everywhere and people where even still skiing. Very slow going and to be honest - by now I am fed up with all that snow! Once out of the snow (and the trees) there was no more water and a horrible wind. Every day - wind in the morning, wind at noon, wind in the evening and wind at night. Plus on top it dumped snow on me at night. I am so happy I brought my 20 F bag! Still it is a pain in the butt to wake up every morning with frost on the tent and pack up at freezing temperatures. I am usually dragging my trekking poles along for 2 hours in the morning because it is so cold and I did not bring gloves. Hey, did you expect snow in Arizona in May? It was so windy and cold that I even cooked lunch once in a USFS restroom…

But I made it to Grand Canyon and what an overwhelming view! I am staying with Li here in Grand Canyon and have a rest day today. Just not doing anything but read and eat (and maybe repair some stuff…) And then I will hike through the Canyon and finish my thruhike in 5 days. Of course there will be more snow…

–

gingerbreadman

#16

GBM:Sorry for turning the forum into a journal but hope this will be hellaciously helpful for future thruies!!!

GT: After my rest day at the Grand Canyon where I basically did nothing else but get a permit and sit and read I eventually started the last leg of the AZT: The hike through the Grand Canyon and up to the Utah border.

Luckily I go a permit for me and 2 hiking buddies which is not all that easy on a weekend. We all had a great breakfast (I actually felt sick afterwards from all the food and was not able to finish my portion…) and around lunch time started hiking. Just an easy 14 mile day and all downhill. But this turned out to be one of the most spectacular hikes I have done in all my life. I had seen a lot of pictures of the Grand Canyon but I was still overwhelmed. The views, the temperature and the climate changed continously. The elevation difference between the rims and the canyon bottom is almost 2,000 meters… And it was also one of the most crowded trails I have ever seen in the US. Hundreds of hikers where out there and I could see loads of “casualties” limping along. The hike is really easy with lots of switchbacks and tap water everywhere but I spent a lot of time taking in the view.

Luckily I had a permit and could camp at Cottonwood campground at the valley bottom to enjoy the day. The next day it was an easy 2,000 meters up - right into the snow. I know you must be all tired of all that talk about snow, but there it was again. Snow, snow and more snow. The first 6 miles of trail where still sort of ok, but then I had to give in. I camped right in the middle of it and spent one of the coldest nights on the trail at 3,000 meters. The next day I could not find the trail in all that snow and had to roadwalk around it for 5 miles. I then tried again and was lucky - still snow, but manageable. The last days were pretty easy: All downhill to Utah and John, the Gentleman hiker had even cached water for me.
I got a bit sad on my last day - I did not want to stop hiking and start cycling. Also my hiking buddies Kimberlie and Colin who wanted to give me a ride to Page from the terminus had disappeared behind me. Sort of sad I hiked into the Stateline campground which is the Northern Terminus of the AZT at 7 pm on May 18th. And whom did I meet there? A mountain biker who had cycled the AZT! And guess where he was from? Germany! Like me he is more or less travelling constantly and his trail name is rather fittingly “Alpenzorro”. We chatted away half of the night and after all his stories I eventually came to the conclusion that cycling might not be that bad after all.

Not knowing what had happened to Kimberlie and Colin I left early next morning to visit Buckskin Gulch, a Slot canyon on the way out. Very spectacular indeed. But then it was a 10 mile walk out to the highway. There were about 50 cars coming in, but none out. Half of the cars stopped for me, but they were all going the wrong way… Bad luck - but eventually the first car going out stopped: It was Kimberlie and Colin!
So all went right in the end: I got a ride into Page, found a hotel, got my bicycle and received all my packages from the post office. Now I am off to cycling tomorrow…

–

gingerbreadman

#17

Sorry, I didn’t realize I was going to post GT’s entire trip; so of course my initial entry is GT’s 2nd posting from the trail, as anyone planning an AZT may know…
However, I was looking at the state maps & there is national forest all the way up thru Utah & Idaho; so I wonder if it might be that the AZT will be extended all the way to Canada… of course, if Idaho is full of radical right wing neo-nazis, it would probably have to follow the bitterroots all the way in that state!!! Long live the 4th national N-S trail!!!

gingerbreadman

#18

Sorry, I put it down wrong, if you have any specific questions, I don’t think the German Tourist would mind if you email her at " chgeth@yahoo.de "

gingerbreadman

#19

Probably better not to post email address on the web unless replacing the @ symbol with (at) to foil spambots and weirdos.

__

#20

Thanx, unnamed person who shall remain anonymous. Yahoo has pretty good spam filters…I only get a spam or 2 a day in my junk folder. Hope all the thru-AZTers got done b4 the Flagstaff fire…sposedly they found the missing hikers, but probly short-time hikers they were talking about. GT is now cycling across Nevada headed for Cali, but surprisingly for her having to deal with snowstorms & HUGE headwinds. Let’s get to work on the 4th crown; all’s we need is to string some NF trails & roads thru Utaho & Idaho & it shall be done, thus sayeth the bored!

gingerbreadman